Curse

Jeydra · Jul 08, 2010, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Since physicals have very little support, nerfing their damage too much would just lead to their abandonment.

What do you mean? What do you mean by "physicals have very little support"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

You can with Panic. Those silly little mobs love balling up and interrupting each other.

The usefulness of interrupting a nuke is dependent on the difficulty of the area. If you're in NKP, interrupting an imp probably isn't worth your time and beating everything with a stick is obviously faster. But, in a more difficult area, not interrupting those nukers could easily lead to some deaths or at least make it much more difficult on your backline.

Mesmers are bad in easy areas, but those don't really matter.

You speak of "more difficult areas" when judging from your posts you have not tried to H/H more difficult areas. You claim that Mesmers can shut down more than one target when H/H'ing and is more reliable than straight out damage, yet I would be impressed if you had half the H/H experience as I.

If you believe Mesmers to be an effective choice in so-called "more difficult areas", by all means go ahead and try to do Shards of Orr HM or Forgewight HM with a Panic Mesmer. The most dangerous foes in both areas use nukes that Mesmers ostensibly counter. Try it. You'll quickly see how effective the Panic Mesmer is at defending the party. Without good aggro techniques you will be annihilated. With good aggro techniques it is still difficult.

Interrupts work at defending the party to some extent, but it's a fragile choice. Mesmer heroes are generally weak. Unfortunate maybe, but true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

My point was to disprove your point. You tried to support the idea that mesmers are bad by stating how no one uses mesmer heroes, but that doesn't actually prove anything other than necros and rits are OP.

Or that Mesmers are bad. What's the difference?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

You said earth eles are bad. I said they aren't.

Warding is good still, right?

No, it isn't. Defensive warding is in general terrible. Consider the wards:

Ebon Battle Standard of Courage - you shouldn't be bringing a defensive ward as a player.
Ebon Battle Standard of Honor - is an offensive ward.
Ward Against Elements / Ward Against Harm - would you rather have 8 players protected by the Ward taking damage from Savannah Heat, or 2 players unprotected by the Ward taking damage from Savannah Heat?
Ward Against Melee - Aegis >>>>>>> this spell.

No, wards are not good. Utility in general is not good. Kill speed is what matters in PvE, and almost the only thing other than damage that matters is staying alive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Anyways, most of your arguments seem to be based around mesmers not being able to clear easy areas as fast as physicals. Shutdown is quite helpful in hard areas.

Also, I'd still like an answer to this: Why do you guys want to turn mesmers into a brainless nuking class? If you really like mesmers, you should be happy that they're useful and their unique playstyle hasn't been forsaken.

It's not just physicals, casters clear areas faster than Mesmers (that's why I use mainly Necro / Rit heroes). Shutdown may be "helpful" in inverted commas, but it's not efficient.

As for the second, well, the purported niche of Mesmers - shutdown - simply has no role in PvE. Unless Mesmers can deal damage then, they will remain useless. Mesmers received a major buff not so long ago, but it did not change their position because they're still bad. A bit less bad than before, but still bad.

If Mesmers are to be useful, they need to be able to deal damage. How they find a damage build that deals comparable DPS to other classes, while still being one they can call their own, I don't really care.

Desert Rose · Jul 08, 2010, 08:53 AM // 08:53

@Jeydra and The Josip:
Are you arguing that casters should deal an equivalent amount of damage to physicals or that the gap between caster and physical damage is too high.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

And your point is? That ANet is loltarded? Whether ANet is loltarded or not doesn't change the discussion at hand because the manuscripts are still the closest we have to seeing how the game was intended to be.

Afaik the manuscripts were written at some time during the beta or even the alpha of Guild Wars. During the beta a lot of balance changes were made, one were a heavy decrease in the damage capabilites of eles.
Also, handbooks often overpricing the ablilites of the every class/unit in the game, Ugh has provided another example for this.

Lanier · Jul 08, 2010, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Also, I'd still like an answer to this: Why do you guys want to turn mesmers into a brainless nuking class? If you really like mesmers, you should be happy that they're useful and their unique playstyle hasn't been forsaken.

Ugh, no. This would be awful. Please no one support turning mesmers into yet another nuking class. I would be really pissed . The reason why i play mesmer is because of their playstyle being centered around interruption and disruption.

Lanier · Jul 08, 2010, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Edit: didn't mean to double post.

Cuilan · Jul 08, 2010, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Ugh, no. This would be awful. Please no one support turning mesmers into yet another during class. I would be really pissed . The reason why i play mesmer is because of their playstyle being centered around interruption and disruption.

He thinks Keystone is bad, he's baiting people for quoting people in future threads. Don't do it.

If utility is bad, then Aegis is bad.

Ugh · Jul 08, 2010, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What do you mean? What do you mean by "physicals have very little support"?

Physicals have SY, bodyblocking, and knockdowns. That's it. While that may seem like a lot, it's only good if they can provide plenty of damage with it. If the physical and caster damage was made equal, the new meta would probably be something like imbagon + 7 casters. But, if physical damage was made slightly weaker, that'd probably be fine.

Quote:

If you believe Mesmers to be an effective choice in so-called "more difficult areas", by all means go ahead and try to do Shards of Orr HM or Forgewight HM with a Panic Mesmer. The most dangerous foes in both areas use nukes that Mesmers ostensibly counter. Try it. You'll quickly see how effective the Panic Mesmer is at defending the party. Without good aggro techniques you will be annihilated. With good aggro techniques it is still difficult.

With a melee, you're stuck jogging up to mob while they rape your party. Even if you preprot and flag or whatever, your party will draw aggro eventually. Then, once that happens, you better kill like the fking wind; no long-term, relaible shutdown makes you very fragile.

Also, you're easily countered as a physical.

Quote:

Interrupts work at defending the party to some extent, but it's a fragile choice. Mesmer heroes are generally weak. Unfortunate maybe, but true.

The "kill everything before it kills you" strategy is the definition of fragile. There's nothing unreliable about mesmers' shutdown (maybe PI, if you have bad ping); mobs will always stand next to each other and spam skills, so Panic will always work.

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Or that Mesmers are bad. What's the difference?

Thinking mesmers are bad because necro and rit heros are overpowered is ridiculous. Necro and rit heros are good because necros and rits have powerful skills that can still be used well by the stupid AI.

Also, why do you care if your mesmer heros are bad? Do you have a soft spot for Norgu? I'm sorry if you miss him or whatever, but you can at least rest easy knowing that you, a mesmer player, are not bad.

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No, it isn't. Defensive warding is in general terrible.

K.

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Shutdown may be "helpful" in inverted commas, but it's not efficient.

It's efficient in hard areas.

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As for the second, well, the purported niche of Mesmers - shutdown - simply has no role in PvE. Unless Mesmers can deal damage then, they will remain useless. Mesmers received a major buff not so long ago, but it did not change their position because they're still bad. A bit less bad than before, but still bad.

If Mesmers are to be useful, they need to be able to deal damage. How they find a damage build that deals comparable DPS to other classes, while still being one they can call their own, I don't really care.

Once again, shutdown does have a place in PvE. I'm sorry if you can't vanquish some areas as fast as a physical, but your purpose is still useful in pretty much every non-beginner area and extremely useful in higher-end areas.

Also, stop playing mesmer. Seriously.

I've never been the one to say something like that and I usually find it stupid when people do say that, but I'll have to make an exception. Not every class is designed for damage. Mesmers are shutdown, not damage. Shutdown is useful, but you don't like it. You don't like doing what mesmers were designed for. You don't like mesmers. Roll a different character.

I'm sick of all this "why can't this class do another classes' job?" nonsense. If Anet can find a way for mesmers to deal damage while still staying true to their role, fine. But, if they wanted to do that, I'm sure they would've done it in the last update.

Xiaquin · Jul 08, 2010, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

(Mesmers) should, because damage is what wins PvE. You cannot clear areas without dealing damage. The only other requirement in addition to dealing damage is staying alive. Everything else is luxury.

This logic is born out of power creeping, plain and simple. Yes, with gimmicks like Discordway, Physway, Glaiveway, Critical Scythe Sins and generally OP skills, damage is on the cheap. This is a lazy attitude and frankly I am now glad secondaries get the axe in GW2.

Mesmers and elementalists are not useless in PvE, power creep has simply allowed people to ignore this thing called strategy and just steamroll. That's a tragedy, not something to embrace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Do you ever dedicate one of those hero slots to a Mesmer?

Absolutely I do, Gwen is very handy with the recent buff, and two of my guild mates play mesmers. Stolen Speed and Panic are great skills that my guild has come to love (though you'll probably hear a dozen other skill names if you talk to them). Do you know what heroes I don't take? Physicals. I think they are incompetent and inefficient. Minions work better as damage soaks and end up healing my party and becoming bombs when they die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You do realize that support is largely useless in PvE yes?

Sure, when you have overpowered builds out there, you don't need to rely on support. But it doesn't make it useless when a party doesn't rely on said power creeper builds. But that's too difficult for most people, why use strategy when you can ignore it altogether?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

There is absolutely no way that an Elementalist can hit more damage in a single strike than a Warrior can in HM. Compare this post:

do you want me to show you a screenshot where a Warrior hits 500 damage x2 with Sun and Moon Slash?

And those builds would rely heavily on OP PvE skills, which power creeped the game. These skills give preference to physical damage. They allow anyone to melee and turns the entire game into a damage pissing contest.

What exists, exists because they went too far in giving us PvE buffs. What's the point of arguing who can do more damage when it's all overpowered and should be nerfed? Everyone yawns and says PvE is too easy, yet I'm sure they'd throw a fit if their precious "uber" damage build got rightfully wacked. I say nuke it all, it would make a lot of things relevant again.

Mesmers Are Bad · Jul 08, 2010, 07:00 PM // 19:00

This is a retardedly amusing thread.

Btw, I've H/H'd every dungeon in HM in the game as a mesmer, sin, and rit. Mesmers are, have been and will continue to be extremely viable in HM pve.

Charr · Jul 08, 2010, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You have three hero slots. Do you ever dedicate one of those hero slots to a Mesmer?

I do.
In fact in most cases I don't take 1 mesmer hero I take 2.
Have you ever tried 2 PI heroes against....well just about anything that can be knockdown?

R_Frost · Jul 08, 2010, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

The point I was trying to make is that 3 (pve) skills can make a prof do insane amount of dps. Me/d can outdamage most caster builds (aside from AP, SoS, and MoP) by simply spamming 3 skills, and PI will shutdown. Heros will nullify most bonuses that actual melee chars have (armor/damage reduction). Why bother playing mesmer caster when you can just go melee and be more effective?

I think The Josip was trying to point out that the damage bonus that pve skills offer are way too strong when stacked. If I misread your post then I apologize.

Josip's Me/D's thread is here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10442017.html

thanks for posting the link seeing the OP never really said anything. it did confirm my theory, PvE skill abuse while building the 3 heros to support the build some. all this goes right back to problems that have been around since nightfall and pve only skills. had hard mode been better designed and implemented, PvE only skills, consumables, and the current power creep way of skill balancing would of never been needed at this point in the game. the only true way to fix this is removal of cons and EoTN PvE only skills while linking the rest of the factions and nightfall PvE only skills to the primary attribue of the profession they belong to as they did with seed of life, critical agility and theres nothing to fear.

although in the case of the OP's build and team makeup, after doing a little reading, i think a A/D could out damage the Me/D while at the same time being able to change a few skills of the heros to improve their builds. only reason i can see the enemy mobs dropping fast is the abuse they take due to the 4 seconds at a time they are on the ground from Psychic Instability.

belshazaarswrath · Jul 08, 2010, 07:37 PM // 19:37

This thread is possibly the most TL;DR thread I've ever read on guru.

Whether Physicals are assrape on wheels or just as they should be doesn't matter because anets not going to completely change the way the classes relate to each other at the end of the games lifetime. That would just be ridiculous. We should be happy they care enough to try and make the underpowered classes competitive with the other ones.

So why argue tooth and nail over it?

DokkyDok · Jul 08, 2010, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...s-t113319.html

Check the dates... Looks like little has changed in almost 5 years.

Teamwork is the key, physicals need casters' support in order to deal 5x damage.

This.

That said, I sympathize with the OP; it's much easier to roll PvE on my sin (with all the hero buffs) than it is on my monk...

NerfHerder · Jul 08, 2010, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Also see this post: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...8&postcount=37

Can you beat those times with a caster primary?

EDIT: @Above - I can bring an E/W Sword build against the MoD, without any heroes, and top 120 DPS. What does that say about Mesmer damage, hm?

Dude, the Warrior was the only physical in that entire team. He needed an entire group of casters to help him. Now if you showed me a group of 8 Warriors doing the same, you would have a point. And I would like a screen shot of that E/W, I wonder why its not meta by now?

@Jossip
All I proved was that w/o caster support, you do roughly the same damage in melee as a caster. Delete your Mesmer and make an Assassin. Why should every profession do the same amount and type of damage? What fun would different professions be, if they didnt have thier own flavor? So what a Mesmer does less dps on a single target than an Assassin? Look at all the other things a Mesmer can do better.

@TheDrunkard
Thank you for the link, I did try the build. Im not that impressed with it. I must have missed the point about PvE skills being OP. I think there is some confusion around here about physical damage and Holy/PvE damage. In the Me/D scenerio we have a Scythe, Aura of Holy Might, and Asura Scan, a deadly combination. AoHM does Holy damage not physical damage. Thats why the combination is so deadly. This could easily be fixed by AoHM being tied to Mysticism. That simple fix, would drastically reduce the exploitation of Scythes by other professions. Asuran Scan could be reduced, but that would really suck for my Ranger and Warrior. But if you take out AoHM, Asura Scan wouldnt be as big a deal. So I agree that some PvE skills need tweaking, but not a total nerf. But I dont agree physicals alone, are overpowered. Right now, vanilla physicals and caster damage is fairly balanced. When you get into PvE buffs and HM, the balance shifts depending on profession.

Lopezus · Jul 08, 2010, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

i think a A/D could out damage the Me/D while at the same time being able to change a few skills of the heros to improve their builds. only reason i can see the enemy mobs dropping fast is the abuse they take due to the 4 seconds at a time they are on the ground from Psychic Instability.

That's not the point, point is that Me/D as a scythe, frontline attacker is in some way the most efective build for support, caster class scuh as mesmer for general pve.

Now i agree with Josip on one thing, all this talking about how great mesmer skills are like PI or Panic are, that's just theorycrafting, because when asked for a full skill bar, there goes those lousy builds or most often nothing.

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I dont agree physicals alone, are overpowered. Right now, vanilla physicals and caster damage is fairly balanced. When you get into PvE buffs and HM, the balance shifts depending on profession.

So what ? It's pve, since when you play it "vanilla" ? Heros, pve skills are what pve enviroment is for now.

MithranArkanere · Jul 08, 2010, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Well, I don't think the thing is 'physical vs elemental'.

It's armor ignoring vs not armor ignoring.

Many, if not most, physical attack skills deal armor ignoring bonus damage.
Barely a few elemental spells deal armor ignoring damage. And some have armor penetration.

I would go with a change to Energy Blast, turning into an Enchantment spell that decreases the elemental damage of your spells, in exchange of some armor-ignoring damage. Other caster professions have their armor ignoring or almost armor ignoring stuff already.

That should fix that.

Xx_Sorin_xX · Jul 08, 2010, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Josip if casters are so underpowered, then when you were in my alliance why did you run 3 discord necromancers?

Amy Awien · Jul 08, 2010, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Dude, the Warrior was the only physical in that entire team. He needed an entire group of casters to help him.

So, get a group of support-chars to support you primary caster and do the same thing as that warrior.

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... Why should every profession do the same amount and type of damage? What fun would different professions be, if they didnt have thier own flavor?

Because HM PvE is about damage, healing and nothing else. You can't play mesmery mind tricks with AI and until recently it was nearly impossible to interrupt anything worthwhile with mobs on halved casting time.

Flavor may be fun but it does mean you're more likely to be playing your fun flavors with H&H

Quote:

... Look at all the other things a Mesmer can do better.

Those other things are not as efficient as just hitting things hard.

Which is the root of the problem.

NerfHerder · Jul 08, 2010, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

Now i agree with Josip on one thing, all this talking about how great mesmer skills are like PI or Panic are, that's just theorycrafting, because when asked for a full skill bar, there goes those lousy builds or most often nothing.

So what ? It's pve, since when you play it "vanilla" ? Heros, pve skills are what pve enviroment is for now.

1) Those builds are good for what a Mesmer should be. Obviously you dont like playing a Mesmer either. I wouldnt recommend you play one.

2)That was my point. Physicals are ok until you add Holy/Armor ignoring damage and PvE skills. Let me repeat what you quoted.

Quote:

I think there is some confusion around here about physical damage and Holy/PvE damage. In the Me/D scenerio we have a Scythe, Aura of Holy Might, and Asura Scan, a deadly combination. AoHM does Holy damage not physical damage. Thats why the combination is so deadly. This could easily be fixed by AoHM being tied to Mysticism. That simple fix, would drastically reduce the exploitation of Scythes by other professions. Asuran Scan could be reduced, but that would really suck for my Ranger and Warrior. But if you take out AoHM, Asura Scan wouldnt be as big a deal. So I agree that some PvE skills need tweaking, but not a total nerf. But I dont agree physicals alone, are overpowered. Right now, vanilla physicals and caster damage is fairly balanced. When you get into PvE buffs and HM, the balance shifts depending on profession.- Me

Edit: I dont know about everyone else, but my caster characters roll through PvE with H/H(all casters). Just as easily as my melee ones with melee support. Matter of fact my Rt and Necro are easier to take through than my melee. Thats because I dont have to deal with all the melee hate. Yes, my Mesmer still takes a little more tact to get through HM than the others. So I wouldnt recommend Mesmers to beginners. Wait until you learn how to pull, kite, and target.

Xiaquin · Jul 08, 2010, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by DokkyDok

This.
it's much easier to roll PvE on my sin (with all the hero buffs) than it is on my monk...

Have to +1. It's painful to go with my monk. There's nothing for me to do but either be a weak Smiter or run UA and watch the AI fight it out, which takes forever.

Lanier · Jul 09, 2010, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Have to +1. It's painful to go with my monk. There's nothing for me to do but either be a weak Smiter or run UA and watch the AI fight it out, which takes forever.

Nah, healing/protting in pve is fun